20 replies to this topic

[Chris Haslego]

I have many, many spreadsheets from visitors that have tons of great information in them, but aren't necessarily ready to be opened and used as they exist. Some may need just a little work, some may need a lot of work. Many of them are well referenced in terms of methodology being used.

However, some people may be working on similar projects and may find these helpful. My hope would be to release them in the Downloads section (clearly marked as "Development Items") and to see if the community can work together to turn these into polished projects.

I thought I'd start by collecting initial feedback on the idea. Let me know what you think. These titles would only be visible to registered members of the community.

Thanks,

[mbaig2007@me.com]

Dear
Its very interesting, kindly go ahead with your idea

[abs89]

Dear sir

it'a really good idea to impliment, it will defenatly help the students & reserchers,



Regards.

[tummalap.chowdary]

nice idea, go ahead sir

[Propacket]

Nice

[jdcurran235]

I have a spreadsheet I would like to add, how do you do this

[Chris Haslego]

Click on your display name in the upper right and select "Member Support". There, you can submit a ticket and attach the file that you'd like to submit.

[Harrell]

Hello Chris,

 

A private mathematician who has done those implicit Colebrook-White equations spoke to me, he also shared it very complex methods. Most of his methods were right, but in checking thousands of random variables with true checking I learn some of his were close but not perfect.  He did note with the checking my answers were always right.  And I showed him that with new variations of the Colebrook equations, my method would always work, and smart students could make the changes for the different variations.  But with those implicit types a smart person could not edit those implicit methods.

He wanted to know why I would share my most accurate methods with the public.  I told him that I wanted the public to do accurate computations and throw away those weird approximations.

 

Please share my info and web site with others for free.

URL:  colebrook-white.blogspot.com

 

Harrell

[mahmoud bedewy]

Agreeeeeee

[JMW]

I too think this a very good idea.

My only concern would be to ensure that access is restricted because there will always be a temptation for some to grab the spreadsheet and use it in earnest ignoring, till too late, the caveat that it is a work in progress.

None the less, this is far better than allowing incomplete or unfinished spreadsheets to stay in limbo.

I know that with my density temperature spreadsheets I was exceedingly grateful that one of the universities took an interest and verified the calculations under all conditions.

 

I would suggest that it would be better to only allow selected members access to modify the spreadsheets. I wouldn't let me, for example, work on anything other than my density and viscosity spreadsheets and it would be as well to avoid the Wikipedia syndrome.... However, there are I think, sufficient trustworthy members more than capable of helping out so let's go ahead.

 

Incidentally, I would suggest categorising the nature of the "polish" required.

In some cases it will be a matter of user interface. In others help with the implementation - Excel is a powerful and flexible tool and for those not used to creating such spreadsheets, finding the best way to implement a calculation can be an issue. I, for example, created a number of them using the one function I then knew - the IF function, and the nested IF function. But there comes a point where you need someone to point out a simpler better tidier and more efficient way to do things.

Then too there are those where the engineering is the issue.

 

Be very interesting to see how this evolves.

 

Where are we now? (since the original post)

Edited by JMW, 16 January 2014 - 06:25 AM.

[JMW]

A PS:

I clicked under the "Paid" section and found nothing.

 

Will this become an option sometime?

 

I am quite happy for those I have posted to remain free but I have another spreadsheet I'd like to share but would appreciate a small return.

With nearly 10,000 downloads of the density files and approaching 4,000 downloads of the viscosity calculator, it would be nice to make a little money where appropriate.

Of course, even free I wouldn't expect so many downloads in the same space of time, but every cent helps.

[Bobby Strain]

JMW,

 

                   A free spreadsheet is worth the price. But always be wary of a free gift. My philosophy about spreadsheets is that they are useful only to the developer, and never should be passed around for serious work. I developed this attitude in the '80s when Lotus appeared, and nothing has evolved to change my opinion. If one pays money for software, it should be validated and compiled so that it is not subject to inadvertent revision. I have lots of spreadsheets, but I don't share them for this reason. But I share my hard-coded and compiled stuff. You can see some samples at my website. Google my name to find it.

 

Bobby

[JMW]

Booby,

yes, they say something is worth just what you paid for it but I have found and hope others find the same, that the spreadsheets shared by the Cheresources community (and some others) are worth a good deal more than what is paid for them.

 

I question whether they are only of value to the developer. To judge by the number of downloads of my density/temperature spreadsheets I suspect a lot of people do actually find they have some value to them.

Of course, there should always be caveats such as don't use the spreadsheets if you can't do the calculation by manual methods because otherwise you won't understand their limits nor be able to judge if the answers you get are what you would expect to get.

I caution against using these spreadsheets without first and periodically cross checking them against other methods across a range of values.

 

But my free spreadsheets are simply implementations of existing calculations.

My only contribution has been to create the spreadsheets and why not share them? But I can't see asking money for them, certainly not within the engineering community.

 

However, the spreadsheets I would like some compensation for are based on original innovation by myself and field proven.

For example, one spreadsheet I'd like to share is for calculating the viscosity of a fuels (and some other hydrocarbons) at a reference temperature where one has only one process temperature/viscosity data set.

This is of particular value in bunkering or blending heavy fuel oils, blending bitumens heavy crude etc. where there is usually no other measurement than a single process viscosity at one temperature.

Shell originally attempted this using their V50 Formula but this was much abused and misused.

I created the multi-curve method which is now used in process viscometer software from a couple of manufacturers and widely used in the applications I mentioned. What I am doing is offering a spreadsheet solution for the same calculation as is performed in the process electronics and I think, with the original contribution, it is thus worth at least something.

 

(Lesson learned, next time around I'll think about patents. Shell patented their BS&W calculations based on density for example.)

[Bobby Strain]

JMW,

     Microsoft provides lots of free software for developers. You might want to learn to program with one of the languages of your choice. It's relatively simple. Then you can compile your code so that it cannot be misused or abused. It will be a rewarding project for you.

 

Bobby

[ankur2061]

Sharing your work (calculations / excel workbooks) can be done only with an open heart and a mind free of suspicion.

 

It is outright hilarious when people claim that the calculation they have created in the form of an excel workbook is their original work. Most of the engineering calculations that we do today have their roots in the physical laws, principles, formuals, and equations developed by pioneers and researchers in the field of engineering and science long before many of us had even understood what engineering calculations are.

 

People who are developing calculations / excel workbooks are only organizing and representing the work in a proper sequence and in a manner which is easy to understand and present. Yes, it takes time and effort to do this, and those who have undertaken this task need to be appreciated.

 

I have never endorsed spoon feeding to young engineers because it allows them to think that there is an easy way out for everything. Many of the blog entries in my blog are related to engineering calculations where I have exhorted the engineers to prepare excel workbooks based on the calculation steps mentioned. For each and everyone of these blog entries related to chemical engineering calculations, I have developed an excel calculation workbook, which I have not shared for the very same aforementioned reason.

 

However, I do want to make a public pledge today. When my eyesight starts betraying me and my hands are no longer able to type on the keyboard of a computer, I would like to donate my entire set of chemical engineering calculation workbooks to "Cheresources" for Chris Haslego to use in a manner he deems fit for the good of the chemical engineering community.

 

Regards,

Ankur

[JMW]

I guess one more comment.

 

In my last post I said:

 

QUOTE:

But my free spreadsheets are simply implementations of existing calculations.

My only contribution has been to create the spreadsheets and why not share them? But I can't see asking money for them, certainly not within the engineering community.

END QUOTE

 

My density spreadsheets were written initially for the bunker industry.

In the marine industry bunkering is one of those once a month or so activities where everything happens at once and there are usually no online instruments.

This means that ship's engineers and barge operators alike have 2-3hrs of intense activity during which they have to make sure the quality is right/acceptable and that they are not being cheated..... fraud is a big issue. In these conditions they must grab a sample, measure density viscosity and other properties off line and then convert the results.

My spreadsheet allows them to perform the calculations automatically and record the data for later evaluation if necessary. It frees them from the pressures of looking up tables etc. when it is easy to make mistakes.

I have found and compared my spreadsheet results with the tables (and this has also been independently done) and with other PC solutions and blend programs.

All that I found amiss was that many of these programs, to make life simpler, use rounding to the nearest .5kg/m3. I also note that few, if any, apply a correction for the specific hydrometer used, just the temperature correction.

I have found that simple though it is, the hydrometer is often misused and misunderstood by operators not simply in the marine industry but in Brewing, for example. In these circumstances anything which helps the operator is a plus. I suspect most of the downloads from my site  will follow the same trend as those who contact me, it is a tool that a supervising engineer can entrust to an operator or less skilled person.

Who is downloading on this site is another matter. I don't know if Chris has any break down of downloaders by profession or industry, but it might be interesting to know.

 

In the case of viscosity, it is less about the equations than it is about methods.

 

Hilarious or not, while my viscosity spreadsheets are based on known equations, and the free spreadsheet available from cheresources is a simple implementation of the ASTM D341 equation, the dual viscometer and multi -curve methods do represent original work or at least, an original use of the equations that proved very effective in enabling the use of vibrating element sensors in the oil and gas industry for real time accurate calculation of viscosity at reference temperatures.

 

In the Canadian oilfields it was this original work that enabled the initial user to save a small fortune. It is now routine for operators to budget around C$1m for the viscometer installation and expect payback within 12 months or less. Prior to that they relied on lab sampling and analysis (which, when used for process control is often corrupted by the need for fast rather than accurate results). Other parts of the oil industry had, until then, been dependent on the process capillary viscosity analyser.  I have witnessed sample testing and analysis on many different refineries and the standards vary significantly for this reason: there is usually either a process capillary viscometer or, where this is unsuitable, operators taking samples to a control room where an expensive viscometer performs one sample analysis per hour and only gives the answer at one temperature (Surprising that the Stabinger viscometer is not more widely used in labs as it can process samples at 5 minute intervals and report dynamic, and kinematic viscosities and the density and is a lot less expensive than an ASTM D445 standard capillary viscometer).

No less expensive but with many operational issues including a vulnerability to particles and mechanical failure. 

 

The advent of the tuning fork viscometer provided an accurate fast and maintenance free sensor well able to measure the viscosity at the process temperature - a behavioural measurement such as is used for fuel oil heater control on ships and in power stations, but the problem was to try and determine the viscosity at a reference temperature.

As I said, the only available calculation was that provided by Shell and with some serious issues. I spent some long unsociable hours on a refinery establishing the sensor as "fit and forget" and then set about finding a methodology for finding the viscosity at the reference temperature for which there were no functional alternatives existing.

That these calculations are now widely used is justification enough for me to know that I have made a contribution valued by some.

 

So I make no apology for claiming some original content nor seeking to see if there is some form of remuneration available.

Incidentally, i note that when ever I want to cross check I find a lot of calculations online that do require paying for. I also find some of these to be suspect whether based on established equations and knowledge or not.

 

I regard these spreadsheets as tools. They do not make it possible to do the job but like most such tools they make it easier to do the job. So  I fully agree that the tools should be used only b y those who properly understand the job, the equations etc. and who see it as a tool. To my mind there is always a danger that those who don''t know how to do it the hard way will not trouble to understand or be able to value judge the results they get. So I agree with Ankur about not spoonfeeding students.

Some of those who took my basic free spreadsheets were looking for source data so as to create their own and what I have done is save them some trouble. Nothing wrong with that and some have asked for the passwords so they can adapt them for themselves. Again I have no problem with that.

 

Incidentally, to download the free files from Cheresources one has to be registered member.

 

And Ankur, I believe you are being a bit mischievous in your comments since you are not only one of the most helpful contributors, you are probably one of the more prolific posters of spreadsheets in this community - spoon feeding students or not - with 33 free downloads available. Can we ask how many remain in your engineering workbooks?

[ankur2061]

JMW,

 

I also have spreadsheets in the paid section or "Store" of "Cheresources". So I am not averse to being somewhat commercial on this matter. However, more than the money for the spreadsheets in the paid section, which I believe is absolutely nominal, it is a fact that people are not really appreciative of the value of freebies. When you are willing to shell out money for something you want, you tend to appreciate the value of that thing.

 

Yes, plenty of my spreadsheets are in the 'free download' section. But they are just a pittance considering the fact that the actual count of spreadsheets prepared by me is over a hundred. Some of them are quite mundane but some of them are quite exhaustive with a lot of detail.

 

By the way, I was not trying to offend you or anybody for that matter and if it happens to hurt your sensibilities, my sincere apologies.. I still stand by my understanding that most of the current engineering work is something that was developed by pioneers in the engineering and science field and what today's engineers are doing is just utilizing advanced software technologies to make them more presentable and to be used instantly. That certainly doesn't deprive the current lot of engineers any credit, but it still remains re-packaging of engineering technology to meet today's requirements.

 

Regards,

Ankur

[P.K.Rao]

I have been following the topic for a while. I am sorry for being frank in my comments. Some persons may get offended. My apologies to them.

I fully agree with JMW. In Sanskrit, the saying goes, “DHANA  MOOLA  MIDAM  JAGAT”.  I hope Ankur understands the saying. It means “The world revolves round the money“  or “Money is the center of the world (human). Without money human world can not exist (money in any form, not necessarily paper money. In the present world all wealth is expressed in terms of  paper money),. Any scientist, who spends hours and days and years in solving a problem, expects something in return. There is nothing wrong in his/her expectation. I feel it is fully justified.

Another saying in Sanskrit is, “Apaathra Dhaanam Maha Paathakam” It means “Charity given to any undeserving person is the greatest sin”. That is what is happening in the present civilized world. The politicians are exploiting the scientists. There are always people to misuse or exploit.

Posts on cheresources forums are many and there  can be answers from hundreds of people. But answers are coming only from a finger countable persons. The reason is people do not want to share the knowledge free of cost. If cheresurces announce one dollar for each post, there would be millions of posts.

During my career as a consultant, I offered a simple process to remove mercaptans completely from hydrocarbons, without converting them to disulfides, thus even removing sulfur permanently at ambient temperature without using catalysts or explosive gases. I gave  a demonstration also in their own lab. The company gladly agreed to take it because they would be able to make a lot of money from that. But when I asked a price, they did not even bother to answer my email.

To another client, at his request, I offered know how to purify a chemical. I have to give know-how, I have to design the process, I have to get the equipment fabricated, I have to oversee the plant erection, I have to commission the plant, I have to operate the plant, I have to maintain product quality, I have to solve any process problems and he will make a billion a year. When I asked a few hundred thousand, he said the amount is high!!!! What a world it is????!!!!

I did a lot of work for people spending my own time and money (including some big organizations). Many took my work for free. But when I asked for some returns, they just ignored and backed out. I have a couple of more projects but I stopped further work on them. They have not even responded to my emails. The world has become like that.

Sorry again, for my, rather, harsh comments.

I do not know where to end my narration. So I am ending now. I hope cheresources will publish this without editing and without warnings.

(Mr) P.K.Rao

[Ahmedforup]

How wonderful, we look forward to knowing.

[Ammad arain]

Hey! Good day to all. I need to do the sizing of horizontal spray type dearator. Can someone share references to do its detailed calculations. Can we use Aspen to size it?

[breizh]

Hi Ammad,

You should post in "Industrial forum" to get a proper answer.

Your ultimate resource should be Google and Spirax Sarco.

From another forum:
(2) Deaerator Sizing - Chemical process engineering | Eng-Tips

Breizh