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Pressure And State Of Co2 In 8G Canisters

co2 phase diagram

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#1 Guest_287dot058_*

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 04:44 AM

Trying to model the flashing release from a small 8g CO2 canister used in soda/cream siphons ("soda chargers" made by Mosa).

 

There is no published specification for the canisters. So, I weighed a sample of them to obtain CO2 mass, empty mass and internal volume (filled empties with water and weighed them).

 

There is indeed roughly 8g (slightly more) of CO2 in them and the internal volume is slightly more than 10ml. So that gives a density of roughly 800kg.m-3. At ambient condition, say 25C, CO2 liquid has a density of 710kg.m-3 and a vapour pressure of 64bar. So, the CO2 inside the canister must be a saturated liquid and at a pressure above 64bar. Looking at the PVT data, it appears that internal pressure has to exceed 90bar at 25C in order to compress the liquid to a density of 800kg.m-3 to contain 8g of CO2 within a 10ml space.

 

The box gave a 50C never-exceed limit. At that temperature, At 50C, containment pressure needs to exceed 213bar, well above Pc of around 73bar.

 

These numbers seem unrealistically high to me given the empty canister mass and estimated wall thickness. Also, filling them to supercritical state seems unnecessarily risky.

 

Did I mess up with my calculations? Or are these numbers actually reasonable?

 

Thanks for any help and suggestion.



#2 breizh

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 05:41 AM

Hi ,

Consider this resource to support your work.

Hope this helps

 

Breizh



#3 Guest_287dot058_*

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 09:10 AM

Thank you for the data book breizh.



#4 Art Montemayor

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 03:23 PM

You cannot expect to "model" any process of this type without complete domination of the thermodyamic and phase equilibria properties of the fluid in question.  I repeat the following from a very previous thread: "More chemical engineers should use - or learn how to use - the Mollier Diagram or the equivalent Temperature-Entropy Diagram."  I highly recommend you undertake a concentrated study of this material.

 

You do not refer to "PVT" data.  Rather you should use the thermodynamic data base (as I have very, very often shown in many past threads) or use the graphical data ably furnished by Breizh.  The answer(s) to your query are all contained therein.

 

You fail to explain your query in an accurate, engineering manner.  WHAT, specifically, are you proposing to "flash"??  If you are expanding the saturated gas phase above the saturated liquid, that is NOT flashing.  You can only flash a liquid.  (and flashing liquid CO2 produces dry ice snow - which I don't think you want)  That basic misunderstanding may be the reason for your not understanding the process.

I don't know what you call a "cannister" or who "Mosa" is, so I can only speculate that you have a small pressure cylinder filled with CO2 liquid at saturated conditions of atmospheric temperature.  This is the normal, usual case for all CO2 cylinders - regardless of size.  They are normally filled with liquid CO2 at approximately 1,100 psia - which corresponds to the saturated pressure of the liquid.  The pressure vessel is filled to approximately 80-85% of liquid capacity in order to allow for a vapor space that allows for liquid expansion upon temperature increase.  This is known as high pressure liquid CO2.  Carbonation of water or soda is done by regulating the saturated vapor over the liquid down to the usual atmospheric pressure.  This expansion of the vapor space causes an adiabatic vaporization of the liquid inside and subsequently cools down the contents (including the pressure vessel) unless the vessel is kept slightly warm or the extraction of the vapor is relatively slow.  Is that what you are trying to "model"?



#5 Guest_287dot058_*

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 06:32 PM

Thank you Art.

 

It is indeed a very small sealed pressure vessel containing approximately 8g of CO2 as stated, 10ml internal volume. Perhaps I said too much in my original post; it should have been a short question: Is the apparent fluid density of 800kg.m-3 usable or misleading when looking up pressure?

 

Before I had breizh's databook, I was using NIST's website and Span & Wagner data. I was surprised by how much pressure the container could withstand at the 50C limit.

 

The modelling part is redundant for the question, but since I had mentioned it, I will expand on it. Yes, what you described is not flashing, no phase change, although I am perplexed by what led you to assume that. And yes, I think I correctly stated flashing - I am looking at what happens when the foil-covered opening is punctured with the opening faced down, liquid below at the orifice and vapour above. Unless I have overlooked something, liquid not vapour will be ejected first. Since that liquid is under pressure and at above boiling point, I am reasonably sure that it will flash when released to the atmosphere. The entire event should last well under half a second with initially superheated liquid droplets expelled at a limiting mach 1, followed by an adiabatic process which will take the remaining contents sub-critical and so on, unsteady-state iterative modelling. Yes, I will have to deal with dry-icing and moisture-icing as I go along as well as returning to iterate how sonic speed changes close to the orifice with temperature and humidity to affect the first few ms of release.

 

So, the post is really about the initial condition inside the vessel before anything happens, is the "average" 800kg.m-3 a meaningful/usable number to estimate pressure inside?






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